As a POC who’s suffered economic hardship, I was disappointed when you replied positively when your follower crassly looked up sdr’s college demographics to wildly misrepresent her economic background. SDR's statements were unacceptably racist, but I think you detract from your message about oppression when you label someone who’s gone through economic struggle as “upper middle class” I thought you would understand intersectionality, instead you replied "I don't care" when she tried to clarify.
Yeah, I thought SDR was telling me about her class background in a way like: “I’ve gone through so much hardship, so I understand the plight of people of color.”
I’m sorry for misinterpreting that part and for what I said.
I want to apologize if I offended any Native Americans, that was absolutely not my intention. I also want to clear two things up since I saw someone made a post about it. I never said that ONLY white people or partially white people can be olive-skinned. I argued that white people could be, not only POC. And I never made any claim about when Italians started to be considered white, the point is they are considered white now, so I used the term white to describe them now.
You said that Native Americans only have olive skin if they’re part-white…. and then used a stereotype to tell all Native Americans what color their skin is. Do you realize how awful what you said was?
i would like to ask all the people who say, "whitewashing isnt a big deal because talent matters not looks!" how they would have felt if katniss was played by a 50 year old black man with hot pink dreadlocks who played the part of katniss very very well.
you know what, racists? even if every single character in thg was described as being pasty pale, with light blond hair and blue eyes, there would still be whitewashing in thg. because theres no way that a future country set in what is currently the usa and mexico would be made up of just white people. frankly, the only way that white people people wouldn't be a very tiny minority is if panem was purposefully segregated by race
yep! and then there’d be districts with more people of color, if it was segregated by race. but other than D11, they made almost all the people of color disappear.
If you’re seriously complaining that The Hunger Games cast is white-washed, that better actors (POC actors) could’ve been cast, that they’re not following along EXACTLY LIKE THE BOOK BECAUSE OMG KATNISS ISN’T TAN ENOUGH, and Johanna Mason has to be black (which it never says that in the book, so shut up), then how about you make your own THG movie. You can cast whoever the fuck you want.
If you pay for it, I’m sure we’d find a way to do so.
Until you give us a few million dollars, it’s you that needs to shut up.
I'm well aware no one cares and that it isn't a discussion about class. I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm saying don't assume things about strangers. That person shouldn't have assumed that I MUST be a white, upper-middle-class, catholic, blah blah blah whatever else they assumed. They don't know anything about me other than the fact that I'm a half-Italian history major from a small mining town. But whatever, I'm done anyways.
Throwing in my story since this sdr persokeys annoying me. My family has Native American blood, and it's most prominent in my grandfather. And he is /definitely/ olive skinned, as is all of my family (though my brother is lighter like my mom, and I look more like my dad). Olive skin is very much a Native American trait, and the fact that you used "red undertones" to describe their skin is racist.
Yeah. I can’t believe they implied all Native Americans have the same skin color. Do they not realize how many different Native American nations there are, and how much variety there is within and between these nations? And the “red undertones” thing was just a downright racist stereotype.
To sdr42890: I'm part Native American (considering I'm Mexican, therefore there's some indigenous blood in me), (clearly olive-skinned) and I have yellowish undertones to my skin. HELLO, HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE BEARING STRAIGHT?! Asian descent is in Native Americans even though some may have more pigment in their skin than others. Also, I've seen people of color with olive skin tones. What are you smoking?
"it isn't a Native American trait, although Native Americans can be olive skinned." ...I'mma just point this out and hope they catch their contradictory shit. Becuz you kno, you may have that skin color but no you lack that trait to have the skin color. Total logic right here /sarcasm.
Whatever, I'm done trying to reason with you. I'm not trying to "win an award" for being not racist, I'm saying that she can be pictured as ANY race with olive skin and that some of them suffered in mining towns. But don't EVER assume shit about me. I grew up in one of the old miner's houses and came from nothing and worked my ass off in high school to get a scholarship otherwise I wouldn't be able to go to any college at all. My family isn't even middle class. Attack opinions, not people.
No one cares about how hard you worked, and this is not a discussion about class. You’re still racist (and no, that’s not a personal attack - your actions have been incredibly racist).
What do you think of Denzel as Haymitch? Cuz I just watched Safe House and he was giving me all of that jaded, survivor of tragedy, Haymitch-ness. He can go from suave to crazy in about two seconds which I think is flawless. Who did you think should have been Haymitch?
I haven’t seen that movie, but I think lookswise, he could be Haymitch! I want to watch Safe House now.
I’ve been casting him as Zahn McClarnon for a while, at least when I cast Q’Orianka as Katniss. But I am sure lots of actors of color could play him :)
I know I keep flooding your ask but what do you think of Gil Birmingham as Haymitch? He is definitely older but I think he can capture the destroyed and lonely mentor traits of Haymitch. Plus Gil is a fantastic actor who can make anyone connect with him.
Yeah, a history major at a highly religious parochial Catholic school with an 81% white student population and 88% white professor population. "Historically Black College/University? No." "Historically Tribal University? No." An upper-middle-class background is most prevalent among Duquesne students. She's a White Upper-Middle-Class Privileged USA Catholic Worldview Major, let's be real here.
Olive skin is not a southern European trait only nor is it a white trait only. We agree on that. But no, it isn't a Native American trait, although Native Americans can be olive skinned. Olive skin generally looks tan with a kind of yellowish undertone to it. Native Americans generally have a more reddish undertone. It's hard to explain but it's not the same skin color.
I hate when (other white) people treat “not being racist” as if it’s some prize that can be won. It’s not. It’s not something you suddenly get one day, and you’re all clear from racism for the rest of your life. You have to work at trying not to be racist. You have to listen to people of color. The second you say you’re not racist, you’re saying “I’ve done all the work I need to do, and I don’t need to do anymore because I’m not racist!”
But not being racist is something we constantly need to work on, and if you think you’re finished, that’s only further proof that you’re not.
Also, NO one went into the movie theater thinking "Oh, Katniss is a tan Italian girl who is not considered white." Even if they did cast an olive skinned Italian, everyone would still look at Katniss and the rest of Seam as white and thus erasing the racial narrative and making another story where white people are the only ones who can survive the apocalypse and the only ones whose stories matter. So yeah, thinking Katniss is white is a problem because you are once again erasing the PoC.
Oh my god. Did she really just say that olive skin is not a Native American trait? Are you kidding me? Olive skin Is NOT a southern European only trait. Look at people who are mostly Native American, they all have Olive skin. i.e Julia Jones. Regardless Katniss' dad was NOT white which makes and Prim a PoC. Stop trying to make it seen that white people are the only ones who could have represented Seam.
Oh wow, Julia Jones would make a good older!Katniss.
But yeah, I think she is trying waaaaaaaay too hard to keep her view of Katniss being white from being challenged.
And I definitely didn't say that she's "totally white" or that anyone who thought she was a POC was wrong. I said that it is possible, and in my opinion, probable, that she was white due to reasons that I've gone over already. She could have been mixed race and all I'm saying is that you can't tell people that if they pictured her as a white person with olive skin then they're racist.
It’s not as if I go around finding people who picture her as white and telling them that they’re racist. I don’t think they’ve read the book close enough, and I think they’re ignoring vital clues, but it’s the things you have said during this conversation that have made me sure you are racist. Not the way you pictured Katniss. That’s probably just your awful reading comprehension.
In response to the asks about me: I never said she "should have been" Italian, I'm arguing that she COULD have been Italian because you said before that olive skin can only mean POC (and then you changed your stance). And I'm not talking about the casting, only about your attacks on the way people pictured her while reading the books. I never ignored Native American history, but olive skin is not a Native American trait. Native Americans CAN have olive skin if they're of mixed heritage though.
Nope. I said olive skin was usually used to describe people of color. This is especially prevalent in books, but we know you have zero reading comprehension, so I wouldn’t expect you to understand what I was saying I guess.
… and olive skin IS a trait Native Americans can have. Not just multiracial Native Americans either.
If someone's criticism is that "JL was great for the part, etc." Then I guess that's one thing. But you can't ignore the fact that only white actresses were allowed to audition. That is some stone cold racism, there is no other word for it.
That wasn’t even their criticism haha. They thought JL was bad for the part, but Katniss should have been an Italian white girl.
I love how that SDR person keeps talking about how she is "not being racist" but "lol Katniss is totally white. PoC can gtfo." She is completely ignoring the history of Native Americans and African Americans in mining communities (which they were affected by longer and at a much larger extent) and how our current racial system works and that Katniss being played by a white actress is influenced by the great lack and racism WoC actresses face (caused by aforementioned racial system.) Ugh.
Isn't there no EXACT "Asian" genotype? They can be anything, have any colour eyes etc. For example some people think Indians can only have brown eyes but they're wrong there's parts in India where blue/green eyes are more common.
There’s no exact genotype for any large group of people. There’s a large variety. It’s very stereotypical and racist to say that all people of one race or one ethnicity look the same. And yeah, people of color have all the same eye-color possibilities as white people can have.
If you're talking about traits, technically ALL our genetic traits are African seeing as how that's where we all originated so Europe doesn't have a patent on blue eyes sorry. And there are PLENTY of POC with blond hair and blue eyes that still look like POC (*gasp* shocking I know). Google Michael Ealy, google Aishwarya Rai, Google Iranian/Lebanese women.
How long do you think it will take SDR to start claiming that they all must be part-white? Haha sigh.
Girl, your patience is so impressive. sdr42890 needs to get out. Italians and Greeks weren't considered white until they immigrated to the US. Spaniards weren't considered white until they colonized South America. Most of those cultures s/he mentioned weren't considered white until they gained economic power. I made a whole post about this the other day.
I might just block them at some point.
But yeah, Italian/Greek/Spanish people all became white by stepping on people of color :/
blonde hair and blue eyes ARE European traits. And I did provide plenty of evidence to support why Katniss was mostly white. Or were you not listening when I explained how the mining towns work and not to mention Prim's appearance. I never said that the Mediterranean meant JUST white, I meant that it included white people. Which you seem to deny.
… no, they’re not. They’re stereotypically European, yes. But there are people of color with blue eyes and blonde hair.
And aw, remember when I said that the same thing happened in Native American communities. That Native American people were also involved in the mining industry.
The only way people can argue with a straight face that white people in THG function convincingly as a metaphor for institutional, genocidal, class and ethnic-based oppression is by engaging in deep and willful dishonesty about the reality of power relations in the US.
I don't ignore other groups that have olive skin, I listed as many as I could think of, both in my original ask and in an ask on my blog yesterday, white or not. And yes, usually when I hear the term "olive skin" it is being used to refer to someone of Italian or Greek descent. Not always, but usually. It bothers me that you JUST provided me proof in a quote that people of Southern Europe descent are olive skinned, when every other time I brought it up you said that white people can't be.
Ah, so it’s just a coincidence you mostly thought of white people.
Lol, I seeeeeeeeeeeeee.
And I didn’t say that white people couldn’t be olive-skinned. I said it wasn’t a word that’s generally used to describe us. White privilege causes us not to be seen as our skin color generally. We have the benefit of not having people focus on our skin color.
You just can't be reasoned with. When I pictured Katniss as having an Italian, Mediterranean look I WAS NOT WRONG. And I really haven't said anything racist these past few days. I would have absolutely no problem with them casting a WOC for the part and can think of many actresses who would have been great for it. I have no problem with them casting anyone who looks the part and can act regardless of race. And I agree that Jennifer Lawrence did not look the part.
Racist things you’ve said in the past few days:
“ Middle Easterners are considered white anyways.”
“But considering what her mother and sister looked like, they had to be mostly white.”
“However, people that have fair skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes are at least partially white and would definitely be white-passing. ”
“What I’m saying is, Katniss was most likely of Eastern or Southern European descent.” (with literally no evidence to support that point)
“Which means there’s a great chance she looks like someone from the Mediterranean a.k.a. WHITE.” (not all people from the Mediterreanean are white)
"This is further shown by the rest of her family being blonde and blue eyed, specifically white traits.”
And I've never changed my opinion, my very first ask to you on June 4th I said "Olive skin color is generally used to describe people of the Mediterranean, meaning specifically, Italian, Greek, Turkish, sometimes Spanish, some Middle-Eastern countries, and some other Eastern European countries. So basically, white people can definitely and usually are the ones being described as 'olive.'" I've never changed that opinion.
Actually, you have. You started out saying that white people were “usually” the ones being described as olive-skinned, and then you said something like “CAN be a POC but she also could be white,” because you realized that white people usually AREN’T the ones described as being olive-skinned.
Urgh people are so completely missing the point. The point is that it doesn't matter if Katniss/Gale/Haymitch/Seam could be pictured either way. What matters is the fact that at even the mention of them being POC comes up, with hard evidence from the actual text, people start FREAKING OUT. So everything's fine and dandy as long as they're white right? Sorry that's fucking (excuse my language) racist and pisses me off. Btw LOVE the blog! :)
I'm not attacking YOUR interpretation of Katniss. By you saying that she MUST be a POC and cannot possibly be white, you're attacking MY interpretation of Katniss by saying that I'm racist and white-washed her when I pictured her simply because I pictured her having a Mediterranean-look to her. All I'm saying is that white people from the Mediterranean DO have olive skin, gray/brown/hazel eyes, and dark brown/black hair. I'm defending MYSELF as not being racist. I don't CARE how YOU picture her.
Whitewashing IS wrong, and it IS racist. Plus, you’ve said some pretty racist things over the past few days. Maybe you should stop defending yourself as not being a racist, and start questioning your racist ideologies.
But nope. You think being called racist is worse than actually being racist.
SC's response to the whitewashing was the cowardliest shit ever. She created a mythos inspired by the experiences of poor POC, a mythos that hinged on metaphors of institutionalized racial oppression, a mythos that resonated with many POCs who recognized a reflection of their own experiences, a mythos that elevated her novels above the usual YA fare, and then when it counted the most she turned her back on the people who's lives helped create her work.
Yep, I agree. I was not pleased with her response.
meaning that he could have been a POC or he could have been white, but those distinctions, in the way that Suzanne Collins pictured the future, wouldn't have meant that much. So fans are pretty much free to picture Katniss and Gale however they want as long as they have those traits and then they would be correct in their interpretation and should be free from you accusing them all of being racists.
…. says the person attacking a blog about someone’s interpretation of Katniss, which I can support with literary evidence.
I just read an interview with SC where she was asked about some fans' frustration at casting white actors for Katniss and Gale and she explained "they were not particularly intended to be biracial" meaning that Katniss' and Gale's race was NOT an important message of her book. Also meaning that fans can picture them however they want, white or biracial. So basically what I said, about how she CAN be a POC but she also could be white depending on her heritage.
You do realize that her statement was the vaguest shit ever, and she was probably pressured by Lionsgate to say something like that, right?
I mean, it’s her fault for caving. But it doesn’t negate what she wrote in the books, which does suggest Katniss is a PoC.
Also I loooooove how you keep changing your opinion as you realize you can’t support it.
I applaud your thoughtful and extensive argument laid out here. I read Katniss as mixed but that her overall race was white, in the same way I'm 1/4 Native but am overall white. Collins never specifies race in her book, so no one will know. "Olive-skinned" is a vague identifier, given that it means brown or green undertone and is a spectrum of skin tones rather than a specific color. Furthermore, in Mockingjay 352 Katniss describes her normal skin as "white and pale." Any thoughts? Thanks!
She says “Patches of my former self gleam white and pale.” I think the “gleam” is key here. Gleam means reflecting light, and in harsh light, people of any color will have patches of their skin that are highlighted by the light and are pale.
In the book it says that Rue and Thresh have the same dark skin but in the movie their skin is completely different. Amandla is what black people would call light-skinned and she isn't black. She's half black and half white. Were there no talented, dark-skinned little FULL black girls that came to the casting. I'm sure there were. The reason why Amandla was picked is mostly because of her skin colour. It is very hard for full black women, light or dark to get roles in racist Hollywood.
Yeah, it’s a big problem - I love Amandla, but Rue should have been darker.